This extended conversation began with my initial reposting of the article by Metaxas below. My heading was Pigs and Pearls. – YeKengale
Subject: Pigs and Pearls
(if you dont get it ask me why)
What Makes Christianity Different from Other Religions?
By Eric Metaxas | February 10, 2017 | 4:16 PM EST
One aspect of Christianity is so amazing, that it impresses even the CBS Evening News.
Quick, name the practice that most sets Christianity apart from the non-Christian world. Respect for human life? Not really. Religions such as Jainism have, if anything, an even more uncompromising prohibition against harming any living things.
Sexual morality? Again, there are religions—Orthodox Judaism and Islam immediately come to mind—that place an even higher premium on sexual purity than Christianity. If you doubt this, ask yourself when was the last time you saw a Christian woman in a burqa.
The answer to this question is forgiveness. No other belief system has the equivalent of forgiving your brother seventy times seven, i.e., every time—much less commands you to love your enemies, and bless those who persecute you.
The radical nature of Christian forgiveness is so startling, so overwhelming, that it made the CBS Evening News.
The story began in 2005 in the city of Benton Harbor, Michigan. On that day, Jameel McGee was, in his words, “minding his own business,” when he was stopped by a policeman, Andrew Collins. The encounter did not go well for McGee. Collins accused him of selling drugs and arrested him. At the time, McGee insisted that the charges were “all made up.” As CBS noted, “Of course, a lot of accused men make that claim,” and the outcome in McGee’s case was pretty much the same as in other such cases: He wound up serving four years in prison.
In McGee’s words, “I lost everything.”
Making matters infinitely worse was that McGee was telling the truth: He was in fact an innocent man. We know this because the policeman, Collins, was subsequently “caught, and served a year and a half for falsifying many police reports, planting drugs and stealing.” Among the falsified police reports was the one concerning Jameel McGee.
While exoneration is sweet, it doesn’t make up for the four years spent behind bars. As McGee told CBS, “My only goal was to seek him when I got home and to hurt him.”
He appeared to have gotten his chance when both McGee and Collins ended up working at a café run by Mosaic Christian Community Development Center. As CBS put it, the “bad cop and the wrongfully accused man had no choice but to have it out.”
And that brings me back to what I said about Christianity’s unique emphasis on forgiveness. Collins told McGee “Honestly, I have no explanation, all I can do is say I’m sorry.” McGee’s response, “That was pretty much what I needed to hear.”
But McGee did not stop there: He befriended the man who wronged him, so much so that he eventually told Collins that he loved him. As Collins tells the tale, “I just started weeping because he doesn’t owe me that. I don’t deserve that.”
Thankfully, forgiveness and the healing it brings in its wake, has nothing to do with “deserve.” As McGee, a Christian, understood, we forgive one another because, as Paul told both the Ephesians and the Colossians, God in Christ has forgiven us.
The power of forgiveness transcends personal relationships. Think of the reaction to the Amish forgiving the man who killed ten young girls back in 2007. There was a power at work there that even the most hardened skeptic could not deny.
Today, McGee and Collins share their story with others. At least one person seems to have taken its message to heart. The CBS reporter ended with the following question: “If these two guys from the coffee shop can set aside their bitter grounds, what’s our excuse?”
The answer, especially for the Christian, is “none.”
Eric Metaxas is the host of the “Eric Metaxas Show,” a co-host of “BreakPoint” radio and a New York Times #1 best-selling author whose works have been translated into more than twenty languages.
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From: George Roper Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 6:00 AM
Subject: Re: Pigs and Pearls (if you dont get it ask me why)
Why the “pigs and pearls” reference?
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From: ye kengale
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 7:27 AM
“Dont cast your pearls before swine”
Ahh George,
You would be the one person to ask. (Others will comment, express thanks etc,….. but you will inquire.)
Satan’s deceptive temptations are always grounded in scripture.
Religious pride (judgmentalism – the opposite of forgiveness and the disposition that forgiveness allows for – openness) often parades as something else.
Self-righteousness is difficult to detect in oneself. (relatively easy in others). So pigs and pearls embody the narrative that allows us to see who we are.
pigs – object of contempt (my trash) Who / What do I despise?
pearls – object of desire (my treasure) Who / What do I cherish?
Following the lead of the HS I have been reexamining my attitudes by asking and answering honestly those questions.
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From: George Roper Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 5:37 AM
I think I understand what you are saying. The story of forgiveness in the article is a compelling one. Do you think it being used as a prop to thrash other religions was wrong?
I am reading (re-reading) Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell
through much older eyes (and armed with a mind more discerning). I realize the book was probably not written for readers who are serious critical thinkers. There are some compelling truths, but also some facts which leave unanswered questions and quotes that add not much to the case that Jesus is Lord. I wonder if Josh, if he is still alive, would have written the book in the same way today?
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From: ye kengale
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:08 AM
To: George Roper
George,
Do you think it being used as a prop to thrash other religions was wrong?
Not at all. In fact, giving the trophies for Respect for Life and Sexual Purity away to Jainism and Islam was proffered as proof of unbiased perspective of author . (a thing which jarred I must tell you at least one Christian philosopher who read the article and responded. )
The author is writing from and to a Christian nation. He should be justly allowed some ego.
I wonder if Josh, if he is still alive, would have written the book in the same way today?
Josh is still alive and kicking (last I checked) and defending his thesis from campus to campus still. Perspective, identity, conviction and culture – a fascinating human process I think that the overtly left brained are wont to under-appreciate.
Tell me what you think after you listen to these debates:-
It’s perhaps noteworthy that in what has been called one of the most prominent God debates of the century, where current trends are examined to anticipate the future of Theology, not a single Theist was represented at the podium! Certainly not an oversight. The opinion being expressed is that Theism clearly has not much of a future.
Sam Harris takes on Theism particularly in
2. The God Debate II: Harris vs. Craig
William and Sam are arguably the most effective rhetoricians in the theology (sorry Sam….. non-theology) business.
YeKengale
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From: George Roper Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:44 PM
Watched both videos.
Interesting perspectives all round but especially the men. They seemed more scientific in their approaches to reasoning even when admitting the limits of science in addressing the questions of who or what is God and whether he/she might have triggered the chain of events that led to our existence.
In a mature Church or Sunday School, I could see a wise shepherd/teacher exposing his flock/students to these videos and then engaging in a discussion as to the merits of each view. How many Churches /Sunday Schools fit that description though?
In our churches we seem disinclined to examine lived experiences, thought life and attitude against what we hold as orthodox Christian doctrine. Over the ages, the Church has sought in many ways to shroud truth and stymie the advancement of knowledge.
I see this anti-truth agenda, quite painfully, in the reluctance of the evangelical arm of the Church to come to grips with the role significant numbers of Church people played in sustaining slavery. This, in turn, fosters an attitude of apathy in regards to the question of reparatory justice.
“And the truth shall set you free”. Less playing church and more truth is what we need.
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From: ye kengale Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 8:26:36 AM
George,
This issue of the “lived experience” of the people and the charge of Cultural Imperialism disguised as religion is a vexatious point that bores down to the core contents of the belief systems of many and therefore cannot be scrutinized much less evaluated. Burchel Taylor in his writings (the latest of which is Living Wisely) addresses (perhaps peripherally) these issues, showing nuanced understanding but, when I hear you, it seems to me that Public Theology might be reduced to a hypocritical attempt at social relevance without addressing core issues that qualify the technician ideologically to understand the problems one sees and intends to address.
YeKengale
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From: Dave Hazle Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 7:13 PM
Interesting discussion. I am of the view that the future of evangelism is apologetic. Apologetics is giving a reasoned explanation of the faith backed by evidence and research findings. That is what is needed in the skeptical and cynical age that we live in.
To that end, we have to do more teaching in our churches about why we believe What we believe and how to logically defend it in a conversation or debate. Writers like Lee Strobel, Ravi Zacharias, Greg Koukl, Warner Wallace do a lot of work along these lines and all have websites that you might find helpful.
I am in the mood to be a part of a Saturday evening exploration men’s group that meets to discuss answers to questions skeptics are asking. Or an “alternative church” for men and their sons that meet at a sports bar every Sunday for these kinds of discussion. I believe some men who wouldn’t go to a regular church service would come to that. That’s the kind of evangelism and church that I am dreaming of. What do you all think?
Mingo
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From: ye kengale
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 1:13 AM
Mingo,
I am of the exact opposite view. If the future of evangelism is apologetic, then evangelism has a very sorry future indeed (pun intended).
As much as I appreciate the intellectual acumen of Ravi or Lee Strobel, believe me when I say they are not in the league of a Sam Harris….and with all the intellect William Lane Craig brought to bear on his subject matter, it was Sam’s passion and ethical appeal….(not logic)….that won him the debate in my opinion. (These are usually the areas where we (theists) generally take the high ground. Atheism is the fastest growing (non) religion in the world.
Craig’s feeble invocation of highly semantic, little known, less understood, and even less cared about technicalities in the rules of axiology made him the one sounding like a Pharisaic academic out of touch with the lived experiences of real people in a real world.
And Craig is, well let us say, not in the same class as a neophyte like Stroebel who can be silenced by a reasonably researched undergraduate in my opinion….and from what George seems to be intimating from his re-reading of McDowell, who uses the materials of Zacharias and Strobel, perhaps his opinion does not differ significantly.
The best counter to anti-theism, I continue to maintain is not found in arguments about the Great I AM, but rather in demonstrations of who I am in the light of the stories of my God that inform my identity.
I am the best demonstration of who God is (or to be clear, who I claim my God to be). So when Harris mercilessly demolishes Theistic constructs, but the Word made flesh comes walking on water, raising the dead and forgiving men their sins, that is the demonstration of the proof of the stories of Who I AM that sent you/me/Moses/Abraham/Jesus or whichever person comes telling a God story.
The future, past and present of evangelism is not left brained debate, but the telling of stories – persuasive stories, transformational stories, stories that produce powerful paradigm shifts in the psyche ……….Evangelism is, was and will be storytelling.
Tell me the stories of Jesus…..
As to the church of my dreams – (this is what I think you are asking by asking me what I think) …..it looks like about three to seven tight-knit families meeting at least once a week in a circle in the living room of somebody’s house for spiritual practice – study and prayer, and fellowship.
They join with the rest of their city on weekends at the local stadium for joint celebration, preaching and apostolic instruction…… in a nutshell.
BTW (I must tell you. I like Sam…..alot.)
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From: Dave Hazle
Hi Ye Kengale
What is said in your later email about the growth of atheism is exactly why I say developing apologetic skills is important going forward. If our young people don’t know how to discuss, defend and debate what they believe they will continue to be weak Christians ambivalent about what they believe.
I do agree that demonstrating Christ in our lives is the most powerful witness but I don’t believe the 2 are mutually exclusive. We have to teach our people how to live the Christian life not just what the Christian life is.
But in a world of increasing skepticism, I believe some of the only ways people will hear the gospel message is in a well-argued presentation of why we believe what we believe backed by a life truly transformed by the Spirit of Christ and living out love for neighbor in tangible practical ways.
I like your thoughts of your future church ……couldn’t agree with you more.
Dave
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From: ye kengale
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 3:37 AM
Mingo,
I rather detest vacuous left brained debates …..(the bible does say to avoid them Titus 3:9 – 11;…….. although I must admit, I’m rather good at them, aren’t I?
Now about di bait, (mi spell it right?); the one good thing about the devil, (and his advocate too ……yu recognize yours truly?) is that he provides for a balanced discussion on just about everything. You know, he gives things ….how would you say?….context.
And with reference to the popular conversation on theism we have joined, believe me, (pardon the obvious pun) there are some virulent strains of religion I believe should die a well-deserved death and I welcome their slaughter on the altars of enlightenment and the burning of their flesh in the fires of intellectualism.
I won’t grieve their passing, and forasmuch that I really do think some new atheist antagonists like Richard Dawkins just need to take a good laxative and get over some of their gripes with religion, insofar as exposing the baser motives of a certain ilk of players in the God game and destroying their mesmeric influence over a captive audience drunk with delusion, blind to justice, and greedy to the gut; I could not wish brother Dawkins greater Godspeed.
Shaking the confidence of the ignorant and exposing the presumption of the blind is not such a bad thing, is it?
Let me ….(wickedly, I might add)….pause here for feedback.
Have a great day y’all.
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From: ye kengale <yekengale@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2017 9:33 AM
Bringing up again the subject to break the silence……. but you should never let the devil (or his advocate) have the last word.
Has anybody seen the series on CNN Finding Jesus or Reza Haslan’ s Believer?
Ian Boyne speculated once that between modern exposure to Mass Media and the Internet, the traditional space for God has gotten smaller and smaller. That somewhere between Religious Hard Talk, and Mutabaruka’s Cutting Edge, and such programs as CNN is now airing, the fires of hell have cooled and the influence of peddlers of religion on new markets has been effectively cauterized.
Hasn’t it already reached “every man for himself but the women and children can go to church if they want”?
Who goes to church these days? Momma’s boys such as we were? The weak-minded and conformists? Is there a place for the rebel, for a real man in today’s pews….or will that be too much competition for Pastor to handle? Will that disturb the racket? (like the Pregnant Matey Membership Swap Club reported amongst the Moravians).
And is changing the status quo too tall an order for the ‘kept’ clergy….pretty much like ditching the queen has been for both sides of Parliament (both parties are on record now for making ‘ Trumped up’ promises that never get fulfilled) Is it beneath their pay grade? Are there no Bogles left?
Can anybody hear me? Anybody out there? Talkers, workers, warriors, scholars….anybody??
YeKengale
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From: George Roper
Yekengale
In conversation with brethren at various times, I have often cited something shared with me a few years ago.
It involves a man standing beside a river and intermittently noticing babies floating down the river. Naturally, he fishes the babies out. This goes on for some time.
What should he do? Stand where he is and fish out the babies or go upstream to see what is causing babies to so prolifically float precariously downstream?
It seems that the Church is mainly focused on “fishing out the babies” and is too obsessed with that process to be concerned about “what in hell is causing so many babies to be floating untethered down this river? “
Until the Church understands that its mission is a holistic one, it will continue to lose male membership. Yes… let us fish out the babies but… I humbly submit that we also need to plan and address how we stop the steady flow. Stopping the flow is what the Church – in my view – has not been able to do.
I suspect that many real men ( especially the rebellious disruptive ones) will get behind a Church that will take up that mantle; after all ‘stopping the flow” is about disrupting the status quo … this appeals to the revolutionary rebel who is not at ease with the way things are.
Stopping the flow is about confronting the principalities and powers. Stopping the flow is about being at the front lines in the fight for social justice (including agitating for reparatory justice). Is the Church doing enough to stop the flow?
George
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From: ye kengale Sent: Saturday, April 1, 2017 8:47:12 PM
George,
Re your ‘baby’ talk – I hear the metaphor. I’d be more struck by the fantastic quality of such a striking analogy were I to see more clearly exactly what the babies represent…..to you.
Some metaphors are effective precisely because of their multiplicity of meanings. Jesus’s parabolic communications were cryptic but clear once the code was broken. His metaphors had single meanings more or less but were shrouded in dark language to provoke thought congruent to the patterns of his orientation to the invisible ‘kingdom of God’.
So, if I can expose my ignorance…. or brutishness – Who or what are ‘the babies’ floating gently down the stream? And why babies….and not kittens or balloons?
But take time with me – My cloak of intellectualism is to disguise how slow I really am in certain respects.
YeKengale
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From: George Roper Sent: Sunday, April 2, 2017 8:59 AM
Hi Ye Kengale
For me the babies floating down the stream represent lives adrift. Lives that seemingly have no purpose and therefore at risk.
I look forward to some of the others jumping into the conversation and injecting insights.
Your views on the attached video interview please
The video is somewhat relevant to the discussion we have been having.
If you ask me Bounty was preaching!
George
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On Apr 2, 2017 9:33 AM,
ye kengale wrote:
Re Bounty: Freestyling promotes and even requires a certain state of mind unencumbered by left brain processing (self-censorship, political correctness) and fueled by heart conviction which produces overflow.
As the political and religious consciousness of dancehall entertainers expands beyond the crass materialism that gave them entrance into the market, the profoundly moral and political soul, characteristic of Jamaican griots and rhetoricians begins to shine.
One does not have to agree with Bounty entirely to appreciate his purity of spirit and fierceness of passion. He is now being quoted in Parliament and invited by Govt. Ministers to address matters of State. Hon Robert Montague has been finding avenues to promote serious discussion on national issues by Dance Hall icons.
This allows them to avoid being defined as shallow entertainment pimps living like corrupt politicians and preachers off of the corruption of a dumbed down populace and like Bob, making serious religious and political stances and commitments, helping our people evolve by taking leadership, rather than merely whoring out their artistic gifts.
I long to see more Bounties, Shaggies, Marion Halls, Lt Stitchies, Papa Sans etc Surely at some stage we must realize there must be more to life than bling, boom and big batty. We can’t remain teenagers forever.
BTW George, I should’ve said to you that once you said it – that babies symbolize lives adrift – (I did say I wasn’t that bright….I’m embarrassed I couldn’t see what was so plain and simple – tells you sopm bout mi mind dont? Sometime wi too complex iyah)…..
But I get it. And yes what an illuminating metaphor (once the light tun on). If the church actually ventures upstream to investigate, it might in fact find that itself has had a role in ‘casting thy baby on the waters and you shall find it after many days” (That’s what happens when you don’t study scripture but yu tink yu can preach)
But seriously, yes, the addressing of root causes of social injustice, family dysfunction, spiritual alienation does take us to places of racial and imperial domination and issues the likes of which the average pastor believes beneath his pay grade ….i.e. if he touches those things ‘im likely (historically speaking) to lose di wuk…. so shet yu mout an fish.
And of course, the producing of perpetual babies is a thing I cant help notice….particularly in those evangelical churches with their HQ overseas….the new Jerusalem – ‘Merica.
Brilliant metaphor. Sharp. So sharp it did bline mi.
YeKengale
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From: Dave Sent: Monday, April 3, 2017 11:20 PM
Hi Guys
I found the interview interesting. Bounty’s analysis is very insightful. It left me wondering where is the rebel I once was? I was stirred to ask myself why have I allowed fear to silence the rebel in me. I long to recapture that side of me and wonder if I will be granted the opportunity to be a part of a radical, revolution for right living, justice and progress for poor people.
I feel a desire to draw along side some cause, but maybe my ears are not close enough to the ground, or my life has become too indisciplined that soldier life would give mi a warm time.
Dave
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Date: 04/04/2017 12:53 am (GMT-05:00) From: ye kengale
Dave,
Rebellion is not bellicosity. The most rebelutionary thing one can do in our present culture is to live a life of love, forgiveness, sincerity, truth, honesty and honor.
True, sometimes love cyan gwaan braggadocious or get fierce like a lion when tested. But most of the time, it’s just consistently nurturing.
Among the fiercest rebels of this country is one Father Hugh Sherlock who dared to live out the lyrics of his song in Boys Town:
“Teach us true respect for all
Stir response to duties’ call”
That, given the bloody and unglorious beginnings of this nation….is quintessential rebellion.
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From: Leighton Pusey Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2017 12:55 PM
I have read and will try to be like Mary and ponder these things in my heart deeply.
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On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 7:24 PM, ye kengale wrote:
Yesterday, I sat in the background of a young people’s Bible study group (I was invited) just to hear and feed (I try not to predetermine observer / participant role playing – you never know through whom God is speaking moment to moment).
They read the scripture to be discussed, which happened to be the text highlighted to me in my morning quiet time (a significant synchronicity in that I do not use printed devotionals). I had retrieved and positioned my notes on the laptop from early in the morning but all day had not yet taken the time to read them over – the day filled with flurried activity. So I perked my ears.
What flowed, confirmed the passion fueling the pursuit of this conversation. For a (should I use the word ‘religious’ or ‘Christian’) nation such as ours, dealing with the peculiar socio-political complexities that, if not contribute to a national scourge of crime, certainly fail to address it effectively; navigating through an era of unprecedented global consequence and unparalleled potential for good and evil, the Sunday school like language (infant class – no attempt to be contemptuous …. the point being made is simply the already agreed infantile quality of discourse in the church) or ‘baby’ talk which adult believers (some in their thirties and perhaps early forties, who adopt a completely different disposition at their places of business or study) discuss Christian doctrine is….. well, to say the least, totally unhelpful and, I believe, very unhealthy.
Such topics as are majestically raised in John, beg to be understood and inquired into, by all who claim to have answers to the human problems of our times.
Shouldn’t we in the Caribbean be giving special consideration to the meaning of faith where Christian doctrine has played such a central role both in our historical enchainment as well as emancipation?
In a world where almost every weekend, another massacre of Egyptian Christians by Isis takes place, concurrently with Muslim refugees pouring into once Christian metropoles, and attitudes of religious tolerance meeting religious intolerance threaten to change not just global demographics, but the very fabric of social systems the world over; should our understanding of life, the times in which we live and the source of our identity be thoughtless, infantile, acquiescence to imported teachings?
If you have the fortitude, listen from beginning to end, to hear Sam’s last few words in this video in defense of his unyielding, impassioned critique of religion and calls for its deconstruction.
Sam Harris Fearless Among Peers
Must Christianity be a religion of ostriches? I am fiercely convinced, and have no compulsion to be approved by any man, that Christ offers our generation not just moral power but creative power as well.
Demonstration however, requires congruence / collectivization of will. Who is on the Lord’s side?
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From: Dave Hazle <davehazle@hotmail.com>
Date: 19/04/2017 1:08 am (GMT-05:00)
Ye Kengale, et al
Resurrection greetings to all.
The scenario ye Kengale described about the Sunday School class and the concern expressed in our email exchange for a more mature, intellectually sound discussion about our faith by more of our people in every setting, is the reason why I argue for a more apologetic approach to our teaching.
Sam Harris and others like him have influence purely on the basis of their intellectual style of their argument and its apparent scientific underpinning. But his arguments I am sure are open to criticism and to debate.
The Christian faith has legitimate argument for the reliability of the record of scripture, the reasonableness of the existence of God, the historicity of the person of Christ, the uniqueness of his claims, the probability of his resurrection as a factual event and the potency of supernatural power that is at the disposal of people of faith. So while we teach doctrine, (what we believe) we must also teach why we believe and reassert our purpose to be agents of transformation who are called to declare the reason for the hope in us in word and deed.
We must collect and circulate articles, websites and video clips that present the truth of the Christian faith in response to the questions and arguments of skeptics and atheists to equip ourselves and others for this time.
Mi gaan
Mingo
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From: ye kengale <yekengale@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 6:09 PM
Mingo,
Straight talk is dangerous sport for the easily offended. The fact of our friendship and our common exposure to tertiary education should count as preparation for engagement, and if not, there is the helmet of salvation and the shield of faith; but, no one should ask me to regard those comments without seriously questioning and upbraiding them.
What do you mean,”Sam Harris and others like him have influence purely on the basis of their intellectual style ?”
How much of that comment is serious reflection and how much is un-researched, regurgitation of implicit bias….and if you pay so light attention to perceived intellectual adversaries, how could your Apologetics appeal to anybody except those with whom you share both bias and intellectual complacency?
My brother, at risk of appearing deliberately contentious, pastors can get weh with saying almost anything in the pulpit buttressed as they are by an institutionalized sycophancy, but in the real world where reason still counts, babble like dat naa go fly.
If you know the New Athiest camp, Harris is their Goliath. There are not many ‘others like him’. Dawkins doesn’t come close. Hitchens, while charismatic and influential, wasn’t capable of stirring up half the ruckus that Sam can. Sam brings much more than just eloquence to the table; more than charm, wit or brilliance….although that aplenty as well.
There is no good reason, save ignorance, to trivialize his influence to ‘intellectual style’ or to covertly besmirch his scientific commitment.
All arguments are open to criticism – including the Almighty’s much less mine. But how could Moses get God to change his mind, if he didn’t carefully listen to His arguments first….and seriously consider them?
No star! Di baby babble ting fi dun iyah! An wi fi set example.
I heard one reasonable Apology of the Christian Faith Easter morning at Tarrant Baptist by one of the most ardent students of the Word I know – brother Locksley Smith. Locksley has been a Wordsmith for as long as i have known him, from the earliest days of the charismatic outpouring, representing the Boney camp of ‘Latter Rain’ teachers emphasizing deep Study of the Word married to equally deep manifestations of Spirit.
He did as good an ’empty tomb’ argument as I have ever heard….and I’ve heard them aplenty….. and the best of them …….from the NT Wrights and William Lane Craigs of the world….and delivered with passion, prowess and persuasion.
I still say, the best defense of the Gospel tradition is not in argument at all…….but the power of an (not ‘the’) incarnated Christ displaying Resurrection Power in a contemporary space, meeting the human condition at the point of need.
YeKengale
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From: Dave Hazle <davehazle@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2017 6:49 PM
Friends,
Thanks Yekengale for stirring the pot. Here are some of my responses :
What do you mean, “Sam Harris and others like him have influence purely on the basis of their intellectual style ?”
What I mean is Sam especially has a warm, calm style of engaging with debates that I find appealing and my suspicion is that others who have an appetite for debate will be more inclined to listen to. So separate and apart from the arguments he advances the way he presents them can make more persons listen and take note. I don’t mean for one moment to “pay so light attention to perceived intellectual adversaries” on the contrary I am acknowledging his influence. I confess the word “purely” might make light of the strength of the argument they present in debates about religion.
How much of that comment is serious reflection and how much is un-researched, regurgitation of implicit bias….and if you pay so light attention to perceived intellectual adversaries, how could your apologetic appeal to anybody except those with whom you share both bias and intellectual complacency?
I think what I really am hoping is that more Christians(including myself) would become sufficiently informed about our belief and how to present it in debate settings that we would become more easy to listen. Just as how “Sam Harris and others like him” are heard in the intellectual settings I want us to develop a style that help us to be heard too.
My brother, at risk of appearing deliberately contentious, pastors can get weh with saying almost anything in the pulpit buttressed as they are by an institutionalized sycophancy, but in the real world where reason still counts, babble like dat naa go fly.
I couldn’t agree with you more it is the ‘babble’ style that I want to challenge in me and others not just pastors but Christians in general. I agree, “Di baby babble ting fi dun iyah
” I sense you and I might be on the same page on this matter. “when I speak of an apologetic approach it is the “babble” that I am challenging. A more apologetic approach is about presenting the evidence for what we believe in more intellectually cogent ways and in the public debates and academic arenas not just at church or Theological seminaries.
If you know the New athiest camp, Harris is their Goliath. There are not many ‘others like him’. Dawkins doesn’t come close. Hitchens, while charismatic and influential, wasn’t capable of stirring up half the ruckus that Sam can. Sam brings much more than just eloquence to the table; more than charm, wit or brilliance….although that aplenty as well.
I can’t say I know the “New Atheist camp” very well but I find people like Hitchens & Dawkins a lot more abrasive than Harris. They are all bright but Sam does bring a charm and brilliance that is I think more inviting. I don’t mean to trivialize his scientific commitment and intellectual rigor Nor do I want us to put their arguments and interpretation of scientific data outside the realm of reasonable criticism. Some of what they espouse I am sure have alternative interpretations that’s all I am saying.
I still say, the best defense of the Gospel tradition is not in argument at all…….but the power of an (not ‘the’) incarnated Christ displaying Resurrection Power in a contemporary space, meeting the human condition at the point of need.
I agree with you on this but it is not the only defense. What I feel is that while we continue to strengthen our witness in loving action we need to bring our discussion and debate capabilities up to speed so we can sound less like babble and more like our belief and conviction has sound foundation which we can calmly, and charmingly advanced with clear conviction and passion but also with intellectual credibility.
I feel this talk is healthy and should be encouraged.
Walk good
Mingo
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Yekengale replied Friday, April 21st , 2017
Thanks for the clarificatons Mingo. Like Paul, I’m now reduced to making very religious sounding excuses for my own brash….I mean apostolically over-zealous comments.
“For behold this selfsame thing,…. what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves”
And like Paul again, even after clearing excess egg from face, I am really glad I was wrong about my assumptions….alright ‘presumption’ then…that you were meking light of serious mattaz.
And you were right – I was stirring the pot. I am never of the view that is only one person cyan right inna haagyument and am so accustomed to people bitterly contesting the same truth from diferent points of view or using different language pools describing the same phenomenon an cyaa si dat. Which is why I genuinely cyaa tek debates………. although I do bait people into them from time to time jus to si wat dem mek outa.
If nothing else, one positive action can come from our banter and that is a resolve to contribute to the provision of on line resources to persons struggling with religious identity – (I have a hybrid definition of things ‘religious’ which allows me to use the term rather loosely – as explained at Religion and science
yekengale
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From: George Roper <geeropes@hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 3:20 AM
Keep stirring the pot Brothers!
This discussion has been food for my soul.
George
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From: ye kengale <yekengale@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 6:50 PM
Being obedient George.
Expanding on the aspect of formal debates that I hate the most….and even informal debates….. – the talking over each other’s points. Debater 1 makes points a, b and c. His /her opponent makes retaliatory comments d, e and f; none of which consider or speak directly to points a, b and c.
If I were to give the modern age a name, it would not be the Age of Information (even though that is certainly going down). I probably would call it the Age of Surreptition (the necessary backlash to the freeing up of information and making it commonly accessible in unprecedented scale. The political and religious status quo’s knee jerk reaction to all that sudden freedom is surreptitious deception on a nearly perfect scale, highly refined.
The gods of this new age’s pantheon – the Pivot, the Fine Print, the Straw Man and many more techniques of disinformation and concealment than have ever been previously employed in human history so that the very times of the greatest access to knowledge in human history should also be juxtaposed with the greatest mass manipulation of human societies – as great an ironic perversity as can be conceived.
This explains how Druglords and Casino Moguls can capture the horns of state with the support (not even tacit but very enthusiastic) of religious moralists whose ethical awareness has been dumbed down by unexamined agendas of expediency…..if ever a (wo)man fi know and understand her/himself……is now. What is the scriptural concept? “Even the very elect in danger of being decieved”?
I value a discourse – religious, political, ethical or whatever that actually delights in the study of opposing points of view. Nothing teaches us more about ourselves than our enemies. In fact, our enemies (at each stage of development) define us.
If I dont understand my enemies weapons, I am likely to be surprised in battle. (Which is why I love the role of devil’s advocate by the way,….I am convinced that if i can represent my enemies’ arguments well enough in court to secure his victory, I can also locate the loopholes in them that will sink him.
Sam makes some great points: Are we guilty of shutting our ears like the deaf adder? Then aren’t we also become the great Satan if our God is like other idols who can’t hear, can’t listen, can’t respond.
We should listen and consider. Our enemies exist to improve us.
Sam Harris demolishes Christianity
YeKengalé 
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An extended conversation on Christian Apologetics, filled with current & leading edge resources, for those in the field, being trained in the field, or interested in the field.
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